Romans 9: 14-24

14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! 15 For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”*
16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”* 18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who were made for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

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Esse quam Videri

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Didn't have time to reply much when I posted the Romans passage. Your position is a popular one, that God chose based on his foreknowledge of what we would choose. I used to believe this also. However my study of the Bible has revealed to me that no where that it mentions predestination does it promote this idea. The fact is anywhere the Bible talks about God' election, choosing, predetermining etc... it always and only points to his Grace as the reason.

As I posted on the thread about divorced pastors, I thank you for you discussion on the issue. God bless you in your heart felt commitment to our King and Kingdom.

dk

In Romans nine. Paul is drawing an allusion to the Potter of Jeremiah 18. Check it out sometime. He builds up and tears down according to what we we choose to do.

David

I'm familiar with that, but on what basis do you conclude that Paul's refering to that? "He builds up and tears down according to what we we choose to do." wouldn't that contradict the very passage in Romans we're now talking about where it says "16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. " ??????

Interesting thought but I'd be curious to know why you think he's refering to that when it would seem to contradict the whole chapter itself.

Next week I will get on here when I have some time and dissect Romans Chapter Nine verse by verse. It is the Calvinist's pet chapter. I'm sure you will find it quite interesting.

David

Ah, it's one of my pet chapters! LOL, no more then trying to use the Jerimiah passage as an explination is a pet of Arminiasts. I'm more then happy to discuss this under a couple of conditions.

1. You understand that while most would clasify me as a Calvanist in my Theology, I view this entire subject as "unatainable" to our minds. I think trying to fully understand God's perspective on anything let alone time continumns in the context of election / free will. I believe the "truth" if you will, probably contains theology from both sides of this issue.

2. You agree to respect my views even if you don't agree with them. One person on here earlier called Calvanism heritical. I can respect your thinking process if it comes to different conclusions then mine, we both agree we're saved by Grace through Faith and in Jesus Christ alone. We don't need to use terms like heritic or "pet chapters". Believe it or not my beliefs on the subject are a little more grounded then just having a pet chapter or two to go to.

3. We discuss and don't try to convince each other, that's pointless.

4. God gets all the Glory!

dk

Well I am glad the post has been kept going and I look forward to the discussion between brothers in CHrist. Let me ask you guys but doesn't the Bible tell us not to try and understand things that is not our own and not to try and disect the Word? Just asking but I like to hear different views on the Word and like I said look forward to it.

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Patrick Robinson
Star, N.C.
910 428 8984
If it was a sin 2000 years ago it is a sin today!!!

I believe that God knows who will or will not repent and receive salvation but that we all have the choice to do so. Because He knows all things God knows the outcome but has given us all the chance to be saved.

Jesus said in Matthew 10:32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

Romans 3:5-8 says "But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say-as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say-"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

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I guess it depends on what you mean by disect the Word???? I do think we should tear into the Scripture and study it diligently. I think we do need to ask tough questions and dig for those answers. I think it's a great form of Worship, as long as we're doing it to edify ourselves, others and as a desire to know God better.... not just to be argumentative.

And I may be wrong, but as far as your refrence to not try and understand things not our own..... I believe you may be refering to the Biblical instruction to not use our own understanding..... meaning don't use human wisdom or values... but be guided by the Holy Spirit.

dk