The Universal "invisible" Church theory is an unscriptural bible doctrine proporting that all believers are a part of one big mystical, universal church at the time of salvation. Most of these types believe it started on the day of Pentecost.

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Well Green the Bible certainly does teach that we (believers) are part on ONE body.... if that body, the body of Christ isn't the Church then what is it?????......... Do you think the first 200 years of Church History had it wrong, they didn't have paid staff, "church buildings", weekly planned hour long meetings, etc......... And the whole "mystical universal" title thing, I've never heard that..... I just get my stuff from the Bible, sorry.

1. If the Bible doesn't teach it then in Matthew 16:18 when Jesus said to Peter, "That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it," What does Jesus mean by "my Church" was he just talking about the first Baptist of Jerusalem????? Which Church do you think Jesus built on that rock.... to support you position you have to answer this. I'm curious to see your answer.

2. If the Bible doesn't teach it then what is Paul talking about in Ephesians 1:22-23 when he says, "And hath put all things under his feet,, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all." Note he doesn't say ,"all the local church's, which are lots groups of people meeting on Sunday morning.

3. Acts 2:41 and 47 talks about all the new believers being added to the Church.... long before any type of structured congregation could have been formed.

4. All through Revelation we're told Christ died for His Bride.... who is this Bride, can it be anyone other then THE CHURCH......

There are lots others that talk about "The Church", so you tell me what it's talking about if it's not talking about the Body of Christ in a "universal" aspect as you put it.

Furthermore, since I'm being accused of being a mystical something, "one of those types" (why do Christians always have to title and label Christians with different points of views).... then address my initial point. I said Church isn't something you can attend. If you think I'm wrong, show me in the Bible where Church is something you attend.

p.s. I don't at all think it all began on the day of Pentecost, but if someone did I wouldn't have a problem with their thoughts.

dk

dk

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Esse quam Videri

Yes, The Body is definitely the church. Where we differ is what the church actually is. Where you believe it is an invisible assimilation of all those who ever were born again (One Universal Church), I believe it is the institution of the local church. I don't have time today, but the few scriptures you cited are very commonly used to defend the idea of the universal church and there are a few more in Eph. and I Cor. I have answers for these but I just got off work and am about to go out with some friends so I don't have time to voice my case.

See you soon,

David

Try thinking of it in the terms Jesus used talking about the vine and the branches. If we are grafted in when we come to faith in Christ the vine stretches back over 2000 years to Jesus and the apostles. Now each local church is a collection or group of those who are or need to be grafted into Christ. All those throughout the last 2000+ years who are grafted in comprise the CHURCH but that's not to say that there is no local church. Paul and others began starting local churches from Jerusalem and it continues to this day. Now in each place and age the churches may look and operate somewhat differently but I think if you imagine going back into time a follower of Jesus would recognize that they were with a church whether that was in someone's house or down by the river outdoors. Church is a verb and a noun. It's when those who know or are coming to know Jesus gather to study scripture, pray, sing praises to Jesus, prclaim Jesus as good news to those who need a Savior and care for each others needs. It can look very different but there would be a sameness to it that you couldn't miss. Since Jesus is alive and functions outside of time there is a CHURCH that could be called one church throughout history. Now for some the term 'univeral' may carry meanings that cause negative reactions but there is a CHURCH from Jesus' ascension to his 2nd coming that he will come to call to be with him. Some church creeds say catholic church or church univeral. Those terms simply say there is one church that is all those in all times who accept Jesus as their LORD and Savior. When the returns local churches will become empty places and hopefully there won't be anyone left wondering what happened to everybody. If so it will be because they did not get it that knowing about Jesus is not the same knowing him as Savior and LORD. Just like a vine growing through history. Harvest time is ahead and there is only one who does the picking, Jesus.

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Gotta have hounds in heaven!

If we are born again believers we are the church (the body of Christ). We are also told not to forsake assembling together which is usually done these days in a physical church building. Both belonging to the body of Christ and gathering together are very important. Many of the greatest revivals and manifestations of God's love and power happened when believers gathered together in Jesus' name. There is something about agreeing together with other believers that is much more powerful than being alone (plus Jesus said He'd be in the midst of them). That is not to say that time alone studying the Word and praying are not also extremely important. Jesus both preached to crowds of thousands and sought time alone in prayer away from other people.

Another thing to think about - a lone zebra is much easier for a lion to pick off than one in a herd. If you always go your own way you risk being easily deceived. As others have said, the devil is subtle. Sins creep in and if you aren't around other Christians chances are you will just not take the sin seriously and continue on until it gets to be a bigger problem you can't deal with. It is the little foxes that spoil the vines. If you put money in a vending machine and 2 candy bars drop out do you take both? Do you take only 1 if someone is looking but 2 if you're alone? If you take both you have just sinned by stealing. You'll probably tell yourself God is giving you a reward or you'll give it to a needy-looking person nearby telling yourself God wanted them to have it. Guess what? God doesn't have to steal to give you a reward or to feed the needy. Next time it will be easier to do. After that the devil will put something a little bigger in your reach when nobody is looking. This is not as likely to happen if you are hanging out with people you know love the Lord. If someone acts inappropriately toward you tell them it is wrong. If they don't change their ways don't hang out with them and seek out people you know are faithful to God. They will let you know if you are in sin. We are supposed to watch out for each other. Of course some of us are rough to be around. We're a work in progress. Being with each other we learn compassion, patience, helping each other, giving, comforting, and walking in love.

Also, every believer is in a continual state of being corrected and perfected. No one can say they are now perfect and know everything about God and are living totally according to His will. There will be people at church that sin. God is merciful. He doesn't hit us with all our imperfections at once or we couldn't take it. He teaches us a bit here and a bit there and corrects us and builds us up to where we can recognize what we need to change in our lives. That goes for the other folks at church too. Just because you know others aren't living right doesn't mean God isn't dealing with them about it. Stay with your church and be a good example unless it is so ungodly there that you yourself are in danger of backsliding into sin.

Anyone who thinks a big, giant, publicly devastating sin could never be committed by them because they are so devoted to God had better take a long look through the news headlines over the years and see all the evangelists who have lost all credibility because of adultery, embezzlement, and other sins. They were doing great things and winning souls and they got taken out by sin so fast they never saw it coming.

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Oh Green! LOL, we always seem to start these great conversations that neither of us have time for. Let me say I appreciate your thoughts and conversation.

That said, you've got to stop telling me what I believe, LOL. You said, "Where you believe it is an invisible assimilation". I've never claimed to believe in anything "invisible". I'm not invisible, I assume you're not, I know Jesus and his work on the cross wasn't invisible. I never claimed there are no local aspects to the Church. You have this "mystical invisible" title thing that I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to fit into.

In your last comment you said, "Yes, The Body is definitely the church" and also said, "I believe it is the institution of the local church".... well which is it????? All that I am saying is that "Church" is something we are, a way we live, a calling we answer. I believe I have and can go into much more Scripture to support that.

If you believe "Church" is something you attend, just show in the Bible what supports that, or just answer that one question- What one Church was Jesus talking about when He said, "upon (Peters Confession) I'll build my Church. Just answer that one question.

Again, I enjoy these thoughts and discussions. I appreciate your working out this stuff together with me. That said I'm going on vacation tomorrow. First family vacation in 8 years, Praise my Father. So it goes without saying I won't be posting for a while. God bless brothers.

p.s. Great post willseeya

The Bible says that through the foolishness of preaching God chose to save sinners. I havent heard much preaching sitting in a deer stand or laying in bed on Sunday mornings. All I know is I got saved being where I didnt want to be before I went that night and after I got saved I wanted to go all I could.

I do prescribe to the universal Church... I think every Church should be united in spreading the Gospel of Christ and reaching to save others. Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, and Seven Day Adventist alike should stop arguing over the details. The big picture is that we all call on our lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for salvation. It is not whether the Sabbath is on saturday or sunday, or whether we die and sleep until the second coming or we go to heaven that moment.

I do not prescribe that you do not need to attend a church. To believe in God and Jesus Christ is a very important part of our faith, but one of my favorite books of the Bible addresses this pretty clearly in one short verse...

"You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder!" James 2:19

You must know Christ and keep Gods commandments. The greatest of the commandments... "you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." Matthew 22:37. To love God in this fashion you must spend time in prayer and studying his word... along with using your spiritual gifts to his glory. Basically all this is summed up in establishing a relationship with God. Now you can have a relationship with God without meeting with other believers, but why would you want to try that? Church is our refuge, our sanctuary. It gives us a place of rest and relaxation with our fellow brothers and sisters away from the harsh outside world. There is an old proverb that says you are only as good as the company you keep. I think this rings true.

The long and the short of it is this. I think Hogguide's quote probably sums it up better than I can here



Joey

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For we who are strong out to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not please ourselves.
Romans 15:1

It sounds like some of you think that with out going to church you are
lost. If that is what you think you have just sent about 25 per cent of
the people in the US to hell. Some just cant go the old people there
in a old people home or to old to drive. Or the young people that is in
war. or in hospital. there was one women in bed for 10 years I think
she went to hell because she could not go to church. It all most like
only the people with good health and can go to church are saved.
Lonnie Woodcox

I don't believe that at all. I have been deployed to Afghanistan once and Iraq twice. Obviously I couldn't go to "Church" while I was there much of the time, though the Chaplain did visit our FOB from time to time. I don't believe that a God that loves us enough to send his Son as our saviour will condemn me for that, nor do I believe that he will condemn anyone that has a legitimate reason for not attending a physical Church. Further, any of us trying to understand everything about God is like ants trying to figure out why humans do what we do, times infinity.

I do feel that there is danger in having the assumption that "I believe in God and Jesus, therefore I am saved and don't need to do anything further". Basically what I am saying is those that physically choose not to go to Church. "Well, I could go deer hunting, or here, or there... or I could go to Church. Oh, Easter was a month ago? I went to Church then, so I'm good. After all, I believe in Jesus so I'm good." Folks, believing is the whole point according to the Bible, but there is a difference with proffesing that belief in word only and in Spirit. I think if you sit down and have a pure belief then you will have a desire to please God. If you go fishing with your mens group and you study his word and glorify him... that's communing with fellow brothers in his name. If you simply choose the act of fishing over spending time with God, I don't think that displays a desire to please God. Just my 2 cents.

Joey

Praise God that's where you got saved.... but to use the logic that that's where you heard the Gospel and where you got saved means that's the only way it can be done would be like saying the Ethiopian heard the Gospel in the chariot while riding through the desert, so we need to get all lost people in a chariot. The message of the Gospel is awsome and never changing. However, one of the most beautiful things about Christ is that his children have many different stories on how they met him. A few met him all the sudden at a "Church" building. For many it was a long process through their life's journey's, for some it was something they read, for most I'd say it was a result of a relaionship they had with another of Christ's children. And I'm sure somewhere there is someone that even got Saved in a deer stand. Again, glad you're a brother in Christ!

No doubt houndsound. ut When someone gets saved...truly saved, I believe they will want to get with God's people and and learn, pray and grow as a Christian. The Bibe says that thru the foolishness of preaching God chose to save sinners. I dont hear much preaching outside the walls of a local assembly. God can save anyone, anywhere. But I believe a sign of a true, born again, change will inlcude regular, zealous chrch attendance and a drive to learn and be with God's people.

Well, I'd agree with what you say here..... but without the presupisition that Church is something you attend. Yes, I agree that when someone is truly saved they will want to get with God's people and learn, pray and grow as a Christian.... I just don't think the Bible says that has to take place in a religous building sitting in a pew.

If you dn't hear much preaching outside the walls of your local assembly, start preaching! I've shared some of my deepest growing experiences with other Believers in homes, resteraunts, at work and out hunting. I try to look at every situation and every conversation as a preaching window. I am so glad God gave me the freedom to experience Him, His people and His Grace, growth in Him and Grace wherever I am and I don't have to be limited to doing this only in a pew with a paid profesional.

Three things the early Church didn't have that rules our version of Church today.
1. Buildings
2. Budgets
3. Big Shots

Limited....no


But the NT is clear that we are to set aside time to attend a worship service with a group of like believers. Whether it is in a local church, a home church, or a tent. Regualar church attendence is clearly defined and laid out in the NT .

Well since the idea of the Church being a service isn't even hinted at in the N.T. I really doubt that.... but go ahead and show me.

dk